Prospective owner with roof questions

[Midnight Rider]

Sounds like a winner now that The roof is OK, sounds like a good deal Actually if there is nothing wrong with it?
That unit is costing them every month at the bank!
Go in and hammer them down!
‘Good Luck and keep us posted

 

[Bozo]

I heard back from the Alliance case manager reviewing the situation. Although it took him several tries to answer all of my questions, he did get it done. I learned one thing quite interesting. The membrane is secured to the substrate with adhesive only at the seams and around each rooftop component. Officially, there's no problem with the bubbles along the longitudinal axis near the edge or the bubbles I saw in the field area that were there one day when under the hot sun and gone the next when under the cool overcast.

I also heard from Dicor who said the bubbles are normal and allow for expansion and contraction. This will not affect the lifetime warranty on their tufflex membrane at all.

Cool. We can move along to the next step.

Edit: the build date of this 2023 unit is 9/22/22. Long before the BAL cable slides in the bedroom

I hope you got that all in writing on their official letterhead. I don’t question what they told you, but going off my experience in roofing, I don’t buy the adhesive only at seams and around roofing components Line. Get the best deal that you are happy with and soldier on.

 

[RockDr896]

Another item to address potentially. I have a 2023 370FB. There is a problem with the attachment of the back wall, you should inquire about. It took 1 year to show the issue and Alliance doesn't have it as a recall. I fixed it myself, but something you should have done. I believe it only affects the units with a couch on the back wall. Alliance sent me the parts and did do me right on the issue. It was my choice to fix it myself. There is a thread in this forum about it. Maybe a moderator can point you in that direction.

 

[Gateswood]

I hope you got that all in writing on their official letterhead. I don’t question what they told you, but going off my experience in roofing, I don’t buy the adhesive only at seams and around roofing components Line. Get the best deal that you are happy with and soldier on.

That seemed counterintuitive to me as well but all info indicates the Dicor membrane needs the ability to expand and contract to function properly.

From Alliance: "I received your information regarding bubbles in the roof membrane. The membrane is secured to the roof at the seams and around each rooftop component. There is no adhesive in the open spaces. This allows the membrane to expand and contract as needed more freely. Small bubbles can be normal"

Follow up: "Am I correctly understanding your adhesive information to mean there are large expanses of the membrane are not glued to the substrate?"

From Alliance: "That is correct. We don’t glue the large expanses to allow that membrane the ability to adapt to the temperature and environment more fluidly."

Doesn't Alliance corporate have a reputation for accuracy and honesty? Why would they lie about something so simple and basic?


From Dicor information about their Tufflex membrane:

Will the air bubble effect the performance of my roof?​

No. The air bubbles will not blow up and pop. They will come and go with the weather conditions, humidity, etc. Please do not puncture the air bubbles. Air bubbles mean there is room for expansion and contraction, lessening the chance of stress cracks later.

From Dicor tech support:

"As you have read these bubbles are normal and allow for expansion and contraction."

These bubbles will not affect the warranty."

Indeed, these statements were delivered to me with the official electronic letterhead.

 

[Bozo]

Well, that checks all those boxes. Time to wheel n deal and get a smoking deal.

 

[Todd F]

I don't believe the gluing down only at seams and components story. Look up Alliance factory tours on You tube and you can clearly see them applying glue to the entire roof area with rollers.You tube factory tour 7 months ago. I also saw them gluing the entire roof area with my own two eyes when I did my own factory tour back in September. However I do believe that the smallish bubbles that you show in the pictures wouldn't pose a significant problem but definitely would keep an eye on them if you end up purchasing.

 

[Gateswood]

This is interesting. Thanks for the link. This is the first Alliance construction video I've seen that shows any application of adhesive. I will have to ask about this.

What does anybody else know about the roof adhesives. It seems like an important issue. I wonder if this is a new method only recently placed into service with the Delta series?

 

[Todd F]

I don't believe this is a new process. Here is another video of the roof being installed on a Valor 2 years ago. Roof install starts at 4.44.

 

[RockDr896]

I don't believe this is a new process. Here is another video of the roof being installed on a Valor 2 years ago. Roof install starts at 4.44.

I was looking for a video to post, so I am glad you found one. When I removed the junction box for my solar panel wires, the roof was tight/glued to the plywood. Thinking further, there would be no silicone capable of holding down the PVC roof, should air get under the fixture. It would blow up like a sail. Hats off to all, for getting to the bottom of this "Bubble" issue.

 

[Gateswood]

The second video about the Valor makes it perfectly clear how the adhesive is spread. Needless to say, I'm reopening the case with Alliance. I wonder if "Do the right thing" includes manufacturing fairy tale explanations or if this "Customer Experience Manager" is that clueless. This video certainly precedes the build date of the fifth wheel we're looking at.

 

[OburgOrange]

I'm very interested in a new, never been sold 2023 Alliance Avenue fifth wheel. I had a first look yesterday. I didn't go on the roof but I climbed up the ladder to have a quick look to see the layout of things. One of the first things I saw was numerous air bubbles under the membrane. They're small and I didn't touch one. Although the sales person I'm actually dealing with wasn't there, another one was in the area. I asked him to have a look and tell me about it. He said those bubbles are perfectly normal and nothing to be concerned about. Is this true?

Another question is, if this ever becomes a problem, would it be covered under the "PVC Roof – Lifetime Warranty"

It's a different kind of roof membrane than what's on my ancient Jayco Eagle fifth wheel but there are no air bubbles or air pockets on that roof.

Thank you,
GW

So I’m a little confused. There is a membrane on top of the PVC roof? I thought I read there was just a PVC roof only?

 

[Lantley]

I think you initial impression were correct. Something is wrong with the roof, How wrong or how bad is it is anyone's guess.
The real question still remains how much is the unit worth as it sits in its current condition.
Reviewing the manufacturing process and speaking to the customer service manager may help give a better understanding of the correct process
But I'm not sure if it really helps determining the price,especially if Alliance is telling you the roof is OK.
Determine the cost of a replacement roof be in Flex Armor or a standard roof. Use that pricing as leverage to get a price reduction.
If you want a fresh perfect unit they are available.
If you want a bargain priced older unit which will come with imperfections go for it. The savings on used/older units always comes with a risk.
However in this case I believe you have a factory warranty to protect you against major issues.
When I was a new to the RV world I was very hesitant and reluctant to purchase anything other than a brand new fresh unit.
I was simply not knowledgeable or experience enough to properly evaluate a used unit. I had to trust the manufacturing process and start with a clean slate. I was not qualified to distinguish a cream Puff from a total lemon. The RV world is very shady with lots of pitfalls. It is not trustworthy as the automotive world.
Now 20 years later I have the experience to know and understand the RV world. If you don't have the skills to determine a bargain when you see one walk away or hire a professional to evaluate the unit. If you are comfortable and knowledgeable make the appropriate offer.
The sole decision to be made concerns the unit in question as it sits in the condition it is in. What should have happened , or what the process normally takes place is not the issue.
How much is the unit worth in its current condition is the only issue.

 

[Gateswood]

I received a reply to my further inquiry. He's sticking to his story. Now it's to the point he's not trying to dazzle with brilliance but baffle with BS. Regardless, the bubbles have no effect on any of the warranties.
-----------------------------------------
" Thank you for the information. The video confirms my statement as well. There is an adhesive layer in the multiple layers between the pvc and the wood trusses. This adhesive layer sticks the multiple layers together that make up the roof assembly together, like mayo on a sandwich. Then the roof is sealed around the edges and each component as I stated in my previous emails. I understand your worry prior to purchasing the unit. However, as I and others have stated prior, small bubbles are not a concern.

I apologize for any confusion you may be having regarding this. Feel free to schedule a tour sometime here at our facility to see this in person. The entire process is quite remarkable."
-----------------------------------------

The cost of a FlexArmor roof is $225 per linear foot. Plus tax, etc. They're very much into working with insurance companies on claims.

 

[Gateswood]

So I’m a little confused. There is a membrane on top of the PVC roof? I thought I read there was just a PVC roof only?

The Dicor Tufflex PVC roof layer is the membrane.

 

[Midnight Rider]

Already to much Drama!
Think of the headache you will have if you buy it, the roof fails, and you could have avoided it all but didn’t???? Knowledge will no longer be free?

Pass on it IMHO

 

[Lantley]

Do the math 225x40=$9000
How much is the rig new. How much is the discounted rig? Is there $9000.00 worth of savings to be had.
Whatever their final price is deduct another $3-5k off to cover potential roof issue so that if it does fail you can feel like you received partial compensation.
There is no crystal ball or guarantees. You have nothing to loose here. If they don't accept your offer you can walk away and buy a totally new
more expensive model with zero visible issues. If they accept your offer than you saved a few grand and can enjoy your savings, keeping in mind some of those savings may have to be spent on the roof at some point.
Your focus needs to be on the for sale unit everything else is a distraction.

 

[Gateswood]

Invoice is a fuzz over $88k. Depreciated insurance value is $60k. Asking price is a fuzz under $45k.

 

[Lantley]

50% off is a smoking deal, but still no bargain if the roof is bad. If you are comfortable that roof is OK as they claim 45K is a good price if you are uncomfortable with roof offer a few grand less than 45K

 

[Bozo]

I would not be afraid to offer 40k even. Or 45k out the door, as long as you are happy with uncertainty of the roof. I get this from my wife who is a master at contract negotiations for purchasing. You would be surprised at what you can do, especially this time of year.

 

[TheTravelingBrowns]

Thanks for the info and advice.

I'm particularly interested in learning more about the situation with this one. It's new with full warranties but with an asking price that's half of invoice cost. That alone creates another $2000 discount due to reduction in sales taxes. I've never found anything to compare to this offer. I can't find much of anything else wrong with the unit.

I just don't know if some bubbles in a pvc roof with a lifetime warranty on it is enough of a deal breaker to preclude spending $600 on a third party NRVIA inspection. Needless to say, I won't be taking the word of the yard dog who assures me bubbles aren't a problem.

I'm attaching a picture of the edge bubbles I can see from the top of the ladder. One interesting thing is when I looked in the hot sun the day before, there were some smaller bubbles visible in the red outlined area. Do bubbles go up and down

Thanks for the info and advice.

I'm particularly interested in learning more about the situation with this one. It's new with full warranties but with an asking price that's half of invoice cost. That alone creates another $2000 discount due to reduction in sales taxes. I've never found anything to compare to this offer. I can't find much of anything else wrong with the unit.

I just don't know if some bubbles in a pvc roof with a lifetime warranty on it is enough of a deal breaker to preclude spending $600 on a third party NRVIA inspection. Needless to say, I won't be taking the word of the yard dog who assures me bubbles aren't a problem.

I'm attaching a picture of the edge bubbles I can see from the top of the ladder. One interesting thing is when I looked in the hot sun the day before, there were some smaller bubbles visible in the red outlined area. Do bubbles go up and down with heat?

Those bubbles are absolutely not normal.