GFCI unavailable when on battery

[Gateswood]

I assume this is by design but honestly, I think the choice should be ours.

The bathroom GFCI cannot be tested or reset when disconnected from shore power. This is a symptom of no power being fed to the circuit by the inverter. This leaves us with four largely inconvenient outlets that are functional and eight more that are non-functional unless connected to shore power. Some are understandable and some are ridiculous.

For instance, we plan to do some long distance hauling and will certainly want to make quick and dirty sleeping stops without benefit of hookups. My wife works and I run a business. During these stops we may want to go online and do a bit of work. It would be a lot more convenient to plug in right there using the dinette outlet rather than run an extension cord across the room to plug in behind the TV. Thus leaving a drooping cord for our dogs to tangle with.

Another inconvenience is the outside refrigerator cannot function when traveling.

Whether this situation is by error or design, is there a way to remedy it either with the inverter or the "Smart Wire" box in the kitchen?

We have the 320 watt panel, Progressive Dynamics 1620 inverter and Renogy Rover 20A controller.

 

[Lantley]

What you want is certainly possible but the OEM set up was never designed to power all outlets.
Essentially my OEM solar package is designed to run TV,fridge,stove. Just those bare essentials.
It does not even run microwave.
The OEM package only powers bare essentials if your looking to have an RV office you will need to expand and upgrade your solar package using aftermarket products.

 

[Gateswood]

What you want is certainly possible but the OEM set up was never designed to power all outlets.

You have no idea what I want and why I want it. What's the difference in plugging in a low wattage device into a convenient GFI outlet or an inconvenient non-GFI outlet?

 

[Lantley]

Its more an issue of power management. They were not trying to energize all the outlets because a 1620 watt inverter and a single 320 watt panel does not produce that much power. They made the decision to help the end user manage their usage by limiting the amount of outlets available.

Many do not understand that power is limited when using the inverter. If they power all the outlets the masses will try to use all the outlets without any concern for managing their power , resulting in a poor experience.

You have no idea what I want and why I want it. What's the difference in plugging in a low wattage device into a convenient GFI outlet or an inconvenient non-GFI outlet?

You are correct they were not trying to figure out individual circumstances. They build for the masses. They attempted to provide a few outlets to power the bare essentials. If one wants/needs a power configuration to power more than the bare minimum there are lots of aftermarket options.
I wanted to power my microwave from the inverter to allow me to heat up food in a rest area while traveling.
I thought the microwave should have been powered from the inverter circuit. However in hindsight I realized a microwave requires lots of power and needs to be used sparingly when running on the inverter
Nevertheless I added an outlet to the inverter circuit via the TV outlet to power my microwave off grid when needed.
Again what you desire can be done, but you will have to manage your power usage do the modifications yourself or hire someone of need be.
A small solar generator is a simple way to power low voltage devices while traveling.
Alliance has done an OK job at providing bare essentials power. As solar continues to expand I imagine a fully inverter powered unit will be available in a few years. Unfortunately they are not commonplace today

 

[Gateswood]

I don't know why you attribute your misguided information as a quote from me just above. Same as I don't know why you assume the Progressive Dynamics 1620 inverter is 1620 watts. Read up before you type. It's 2000 watts. That's what the "20" means. You're way off topic and have contributed absolutely nothing to this conversation and done nothing toward answering my very simple question. Please feel free to discontinue following this topic unless or until you have something or anything worthwhile to add. If I ever want your advice or instruction or experiences, I'll ask for it.

 

[Lantley]

Unfortunately this is a public forum as long as you post. Someone may answer. Feel free to agree or disagree but you don't get to censor or control the replies
I don't think my comments were disrespectful. I am somewhat familiar with your solar package because I have a similar package.
You are correct that I assumed the 1620 inverter was 1600 watts . But even at 2000 watts you don't have enough power to do anything substantial.
You would want a inverter larger than 2000 watts to power all outlets. My rig came with a 2000 watt inverter basically the same package you have
if I were trying to power all outlets I would want a more robust set up.
To answer you question more directly. There is no error. This system was designed that way.
There is no way to remedy or change your scenario other than rewiring your outlets.

 

[Gateswood]

Oh jeez, why don't you just stop? You can connect all the outlets you want to connect to an inverter and send power to every outlet. Your limitation is using more power from the outlets than the system can supply. Just because you have 15 outlets doesn't mean you have to run something plugged into every outlet.

Maybe I should reword my simple question for others. How and where could someone do a modification to supply inverter power for energizing the GFCI circuit? This isn't rocket science.

As I said, my interest is doing simple things like plugging a laptop into the dinette GFCI outlet while stopped for a rest and making the small outside refrigerator stay cold while we're on long road trips.

 

[stanburnb]

I installed a Victron MultiPlus II inverter/charger in my trailer. I wired it to power the entire trailer and did not use the factory inverter prep. It is easy to do. a simplistic explanation is that I disconnected the shore power cable from the back of the connector on the side of the trailer and wired it to the output on the Victron MultiPlus. Then I ran new cable from the back of the shore power connector to a Power Watchdog surge protector then new cable from the surge protector to the input of the inverter. It woks like a charm.

So for the how and where portion of your question, find a solar installer. Do not use a dealer as in my opinion they aren't up on that kind of stuff. Or learn about it and do it yourself, as you said it isn't rocket science.

As a side note, kind responses are more likely to generate useful responses. Have a great day.

 

[Gateswood]

Thank you for that information. Since all of my equipment is already installed, that seems to be a lot of work to get what I need. Logic tells me there must be a simple way to route power to the GFI circuit that Alliance has bypassed. Hard to know using the Alliance documentation. The manual for my model {written in 2021) shows a completely different inverter and power center than what they installed in mine.

 

[Gateswood]

The way they restrict electricity usage in this trailer is really demented. There are actually two GFCI circuits. The bathroom circuit controls just about all outlets with no power to any on that circuit when on battery. Only the bedroom TV outlet and the two nightstand outlets have power no matter what..

The second GFCI is where the 90 watt TV plugs in. There are two outlets on this circuit. The one behind the TV and one above the stove that remain live while on battery power. One is a very convenient place to blow through more than 2000 watts in a new york second. A coffee maker and an electric skillet would do that very nicely.

Yet you can't run a 19 watt dehumidifier in the bathroom. You can't power a 30 watt laptop by plugging into the dinette outlet.

And, the most brain-dead decision of all, you can't run the outside refrigerator when traveling even though it uses a max of 500 watts per day per the energy star rating. I put a meter on it to find out how much of an electrical risk this thing can possibly be. So far it averaged 25.06 watts to bring it from hot startup down to 37° in the first hour. On thermostat setting 4.

This, while you may have solar power and you will definitely have power from the truck when driving.

 

[George]

I have no knowledge of your hardware and I'm not saying to do this but...
If your power center is like mine another RV we owned you can swap circuit breakers with each other (with their wire) to energize/de-energize the desired configuration.
Offered as friendly conversation. I have no idea what you want.

 

[Oregon_Camper]

Open up your sub-panel and post an image of the hot bus bar. Then we can see if you might be able to put in a double pole breaker, allowing you to move one more circuit from main panel.

Your other options are:
1 - While parked - Use a "solar generator" to plug your RV into, which would have all circuit live. Need to turn off converter
2 - In moition - Can you access the back to the small frig area from inside...if so, the solar generator could be used here to run frig while you drive
3 - For those quick over night stops, a few extension cords could do the trick. Not pretty...and kinda junky looking....but it would work
4 - Start all over. Sell what you have and use a 3000w Victron MulitPlus II. I did this in our RV and it works great.

 

[Gateswood]

I have no knowledge of your hardware and I'm not saying to do this but...
If your power center is like mine another RV we owned you can swap circuit breakers with each other (with their wire) to energize/de-energize the desired configuration.
Offered as friendly conversation. I have no idea what you want.

Thank you. It has some iteration of Progressive Dynamics PD4500. Alliance has removed the PD stickers to make it their own but the 2021 manual for the unit shows it was a PD4560 at that time. I do think there must be a way to override the electrical censorship imposed by Alliance. What I want is simply convenience for long haul travel. I have a case open with Alliance. This what I got from them last week. "The inverter only supplies 120 volts to select outlets in the coach. If the coach is not plugged into 50-amp shore power, the inverter will only supply power to limited items in your coach." As usual, this particular case manager tries to answer a question by repeating the question in a different way. I think I'll try to get the wiring plan from him but from what I read in the forum, the chances of that happening are slim to none.

Open up your sub-panel and post an image of the hot bus bar. Then we can see if you might be able to put in a double pole breaker, allowing you to move one more circuit from main panel.

Your other options are:
1 - While parked - Use a "solar generator" to plug your RV into, which would have all circuit live. Need to turn off converter
2 - In moition - Can you access the back to the small frig area from inside...if so, the solar generator could be used here to run frig while you drive
3 - For those quick over night stops, a few extension cords could do the trick. Not pretty...and kinda junky looking....but it would work
4 - Start all over. Sell what you have and use a 3000w Victron MulitPlus II. I did this in our RV and it works great.

I will get a picture of panel and the inside of the inverter. It seems to me like situation can be resolved with adjustments of these.

1. I don't know how to turn off the converter. Do you mean use the 50A breaker? I don't know anything about solar generators. I have a couple of 30W 10A MPPT solar chargers but that's it.

2. I could do this by drilling some fairly large holes, plugging the refrigerator into a very long extension cord and routing it to one of the few live outlets inside the trailer. Not a realistic solution to power a refrigerator that's now running on 15 watts after cooling down and settling in. I suppose I could put a charged solar generator in the compartment to run the refrigerator while traveling. Both of these things would require moving the refrigerator to facilitate easy unplugging/replugging. It's hard to access the plug without losing some skin.

3. Indeed. Junky and not exactly safe. I don't really want drooping cords for our dogs to get tangled in.

4. I may do something like that eventually but it won't be soon. When I finish with the dual FLA setup and go to lithium batteries, maybe, but the objective now is far from camping on solar power. For basic survival in the boonies, I have an old 5KW Honda powered generator we can easily bring in the truck.

Thank you for the insight and information and the offer to help me resolve this problem.

 

[Gateswood]

Pictures of the panel and the legend. I'll have to do some studying before I'm comfortable getting into the inverter.

https://imgur.com/zkuPVYz

https://imgur.com/mXjXDJM

 

[Lantley]

While parked - Use a "solar generator" to plug your RV into, which would have all circuit live. Need to turn off converter

He could simply plug his laptop and/or computer gear into a solar generator for off grid use.
He would not have to plug the entire RV into the solar generator if he just trying to run his computer.
THe solar generator could just set under the table or wherever he uses the computer.
Depending on the size of the solar generator he could also use the same solar generator to run his outdoor fridge or he could get a 2nd solar generator and use it solely for the outdoor fridge if he did not want to move it around.
The solar generators could easily be recharged when he was on an electric site.

 

[Chaseweston]

Determine which breaker(s) controls the outlets you wish to run on battery via inverter and disconnect the wiring from the power distribution box, extend the wiring (12/2 Romex) from there to inverter location (to connect to AC out (probably already have a 4 square box with the circuits wire nutted together, if not, add one)). The PD 1620 has integral transfer switch and runs AC shore power through it while hooked up and automatically switches to inverted power to supply AC to the AC out circuit when shore power is not present. The Inverter Breaker is the AC in that is passed through the inverter while hooked up to shore power. Link below has good wiring diagram on installing the unit to provide a visual reference.

PD1620 Spec Sheet

 

[Gateswood]

Some findings:

The GFI breaker cuts power to the bathroom outlet controlled GFCI circuit that serves 7 outlets. None of these run on battery. Only on shore power.

No breaker cuts power to the secondary GFCI circuit that's controlled by the LR TV outlet. This circuit serves 2 outlets that includes the one above the stove. The one most likely to ever draw excessive power.This circuit is always functional when running on battery.

No breaker cuts power to the three outlet non-GFCI circuit in the bedroom. These always work when on battery or shore power.

All of these circuits very quickly flash off and back on when the Inverter breaker is opened or closed.

Yet another circuit was identified. The outlet in the ceiling of the bunkhouse room is controlled by the Washer breaker. This outlet is apparently not connected to the inverter because it doesn't flash when the Inverter breaker is cycled. This outlet has no power when on battery power.

 

[Gateswood]

Determine which breaker(s) controls the outlets you wish to run on battery via inverter and disconnect the wiring from the power distribution box, extend the wiring (12/2 Romex) from there to inverter location (to connect to AC out (probably already have a 4 square box with the circuits wire nutted together, if not, add one)). The PD 1620 has integral transfer switch and runs AC shore power through it while hooked up and automatically switches to inverted power to supply AC to the AC out circuit when shore power is not present. The Inverter Breaker is the AC in that is passed through the inverter while hooked up to shore power. Link below has good wiring diagram on installing the unit to provide a visual reference.

PD1620 Spec Sheet

Thanks for this. Good info. I'm hoping to find a way to do this all within the Progressive Dynamics power center where all the AC breakers live. Maybe it could be as simple as providing full time inverter power to the GFI breaker and the main GFCI circuit in this PD power center. To know about that, I suppose I have to figure out why no breaker in the power center shuts off the secondary GFCI circuit. If I can make those two GFCI circuits behave identically, it should do everything I need it to do. And a whole bunch more that I don't care about at all.

I have that document for my inverter but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me and probably won't until I can see it inside the inverter. I hope I don't have to go that far.

 

[Oregon_Camper]

While parked - Use a "solar generator" to plug your RV into, which would have all circuit live. Need to turn off converter

He could simply plug his laptop and/or computer gear into a solar generator for off grid use.
He would not have to plug the entire RV into the solar generator if he just trying to run his computer.
THe solar generator could just set under the table or wherever he uses the computer.
Depending on the size of the solar generator he could also use the same solar generator to run his outdoor fridge or he could get a 2nd solar generator and use it solely for the outdoor fridge if he did not want to move it around.
The solar generators could easily be recharged when he was on an electric site.

Yep...but he was looking for a possible way to have all outlet hot, with the understanding he couldn't run many things at one time.

 

[Chaseweston]

Thanks for this. Good info. I'm hoping to find a way to do this all within the Progressive Dynamics power center where all the AC breakers live. Maybe it could be as simple as providing full time inverter power to the GFI breaker and the main GFCI circuit in this PD power center. To know about that, I suppose I have to figure out why no breaker in the power center shuts off the secondary GFCI circuit. If I can make those two GFCI circuits behave identically, it should do everything I need it to do. And a whole bunch more that I don't care about at all.

I have that document for my inverter but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me and probably won't until I can see it inside the inverter. I hope I don't have to go that far.

You can energize the main GFCI circuit on inverter power but you wont be able to do it inside the main panel. You'd either need a sub panel that is energized by the inverter AC out circuit or remove the hot neutral and ground wires from the main panel GFCI breaker and extend them to the AC Out from inverter. Could even swap circuits if you wanted. Pull the current "secondary circuit" wires back to the panel and connect to GFCI breaker and run the existing GFCI circuit to the Inverter AC out location.

The secondary GFCI circuit does not shut off with any of the AC breakers because when you kill the AC in to the inverter (with the inverter breaker) the internal transfer switch in the PD 1620 switches to battery power to feed that circuit.

If you connect the AC out from the inverter to any breaker in the main panel you will back feed the whole panel including the converter which will try and charge the battery from the battery and the inverter itself running in a loop (if it doesn't fault, or open a time travel portal, not sure which will occur)