2024 310RL Furnace issues

[BryanValRox]

Folks, your hoses labeled 1&2 feed metal duct work that travels back to the kitchen island. My best advice as fellow 2024 310 RL owner is as follows.
1. Remove the vent covers at the island outlet.
2. Place your camera phone down inside the opening while on video and move the camera back and forth slowly.
3. Review your results.

When our heater struggled to raise the temperature in the coach I did the same an found our metal duct work has major issues. It was completely collapsed right at the outlet. The cause of the collapse is that two screws have been run down thru the floor and they have engaged the duct and have physically pulled/pushed it shut.
Once I figured this out, I rigged, yes rigged a pipe flange and a pipe nipple to snake down the island opening and lift the duct open on one side .( not proud of the temporary fix, but it allows some heat out of island duct.) This is the best that I can do with ours for now, because there isn’t much room and my arm doesn’t bend enough different ways to get to the screws that appear to be causing our problem. The way I see it, this will need accessed from the underbelly or the island will need to be removed from the floor to better access the vent. I have attached two pictures for your review.
One shows the normal duct height on one side and the other shows the restricted side of the duct work. And if you look at the collapsed side it narrows to about 1/2 inch and you can see the two screws causing the collapse. Yes, there is a warranty claim in my future and I have the pictures to prove that there is an issue.

 

[RockDr896]

I don't have any solutions for you, but I do have a suggestion on examining the ducts. I bought a small endoscope camera that works with my cell phone. It was pretty fair on pricing, especially considering these things can be $100s. Used it on my 2024 310RL to find the cables to my winegard antenna in the roof since they weren't routed through to the small ceiling cap. It wasn't too expensive and could certainly be useful for other troubleshooting, like looking into your ducts! Here's the link to Amazon for the one I got: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C1B47KSS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Hope you get it figured out!

PURCHASED!! Never thought about having one before. I may just use it, to see if wife is in a good mood before entering the RV...LOL

 

[Katmando]

Folks, your hoses labeled 1&2 feed metal duct work that travels back to the kitchen island. My best advice as fellow 2024 310 RL owner is as follows.
1. Remove the vent covers at the island outlet.
2. Place your camera phone down inside the opening while on video and move the camera back and forth slowly.
3. Review your results.

When our heater struggled to raise the temperature in the coach I did the same an found our metal duct work has major issues. It was completely collapsed right at the outlet. The cause of the collapse is that two screws have been run down thru the floor and they have engaged the duct and have physically pulled/pushed it shut.
Once I figured this out, I rigged, yes rigged a pipe flange and a pipe nipple to snake down the island opening and lift the duct open on one side .( not proud of the temporary fix, but it allows some heat out of island duct.) This is the best that I can do with ours for now, because there isn’t much room and my arm doesn’t bend enough different ways to get to the screws that appear to be causing our problem. The way I see it, this will need accessed from the underbelly or the island will need to be removed from the floor to better access the vent. I have attached two pictures for your review.
One shows the normal duct height on one side and the other shows the restricted side of the duct work. And if you look at the collapsed side it narrows to about 1/2 inch and you can see the two screws causing the collapse. Yes, there is a warranty claim in my future and I have the pictures to prove that there is an issue.

That helps a lot. Because we didn't know where the two pieces of ductwork went, we disconnected the one labeled #2 and there was virtually ZERO airflow to the island vents. From that, we deduced that either a) #1 goes to the island and is obstructed or b) #1 goes to someplace unknown. We still don't know what the 2" hose coming off the south side of the furnace and heading in the same direction is heating. Based on what you're saying, if #1 goes to the island then it is obstructed. I will try (again) to get a video of the ductwork at the island and I do have an endoscope that works with my laptop. Temps are dropping today, so tomorrow morning will be a good time to test.

Note: The furnace cycled normally this morning, unexpectedly when I left the door open. It was set at 73 and when it dropped to 72, it came on, went to 74 and shut off. This is the "it works fine!" test we get from the dealership. Works great when you really don't need it, but not when it's cold.

Curious how your warranty claim works out, where you have to take it or if they send someone to you?

 

[BryanValRox]

So, it is my belief that both your 1 and 2 feed the common metal duct work that just makes the connection between the basement area and the island. I believe they use two hoses to supply more volume of flow. If you removed one hose and had no air flow in the duct, it could be just that the air took the least path of resistance and flowed out the disconnect hose. Or, it could be you have restricted duct work.
I do not believe that the metal duct work has any other purpose then to transport the air front to rear, meaning no other openings to feed heated air to other than the island.
I believe your small hose is used to provide heat to the underbelly tank area to help keep tanks from freezing.
I would use your endoscope to inspect things from the island end and also the basement end, as others with various models have found this end collapsed as well. You should really be able to see front to island with a consistent height the entire way. You might see some internal support within the duct work to aid in keeping it open while providing some strength.
I am still scratching my head regarding your extra outlet at the coffee bar. This has to be either and engineering improvement by alliance or someone’s attempt to work around a larger issue.
I guess Alliance could answer if this is was a running change to the 2024 310 RL, because I certainly do not have that outlet, only the island outlet on ours.

If duct work doesn’t turn out to be the root cause, others have found pinched/shorted thermostat wiring between the stat and the heater, so you might trace this out as well while you are investigating the duct work.

 

[Todd F]

I may have missed in an earlier post, but did the furnace work correctly without any ducts attached?

 

[Katmando]

I may have missed in an earlier post, but did the furnace work correctly without any ducts attached?

Yes, they did.

 

[Katmando]

So, it is my belief that both your 1 and 2 feed the common metal duct work that just makes the connection between the basement area and the island. I believe they use two hoses to supply more volume of flow. If you removed one hose and had no air flow in the duct, it could be just that the air took the least path of resistance and flowed out the disconnect hose. Or, it could be you have restricted duct work.
I do not believe that the metal duct work has any other purpose then to transport the air front to rear, meaning no other openings to feed heated air to other than the island.
I believe your small hose is used to provide heat to the underbelly tank area to help keep tanks from freezing.
I would use your endoscope to inspect things from the island end and also the basement end, as others with various models have found this end collapsed as well. You should really be able to see front to island with a consistent height the entire way. You might see some internal support within the duct work to aid in keeping it open while providing some strength.
I am still scratching my head regarding your extra outlet at the coffee bar. This has to be either and engineering improvement by alliance or someone’s attempt to work around a larger issue.
I guess Alliance could answer if this is was a running change to the 2024 310 RL, because I certainly do not have that outlet, only the island outlet on ours.

If duct work doesn’t turn out to be the root cause, others have found pinched/shorted thermostat wiring between the stat and the heater, so you might trace this out as well while you are investigating the duct work.

These photos and the YouTube video were taken with my cell phone camera. I dropped it into the kitchen island vent. There's an area of crumpled metal and try as I might, I could not get the endoscope camera past all the obstacles to find where it connects with the 4 inch ductwork. I could go backwards, as you suggest, from the furnace outlet and upwards, but the endoscope is floppy and folds back on itself. We're considering disconnecting the kitchen island and rerouting the air elsewhere. It wouldn't be a loss because there is barely any airflow now. We'll have the warmest storage area around.

I'm curious what effect this has on trade-in value. In other words, if this re-routing workaround solves the immediate problem of the furnace overheating, but doesn't get to the root cause, and we decide to trade this in, what kind of loss are we looking at? This should have never left the factory or the dealership and not been left to a couple of HVAC-ignorant old people to realize there's a problem on day 2 of ownership.

 

[BryanValRox]

These photos and the YouTube video were taken with my cell phone camera. I dropped it into the kitchen island vent. There's an area of crumpled metal and try as I might, I could not get the endoscope camera past all the obstacles to find where it connects with the 4 inch ductwork. I could go backwards, as you suggest, from the furnace outlet and upwards, but the endoscope is floppy and folds back on itself. We're considering disconnecting the kitchen island and rerouting the air elsewhere. It wouldn't be a loss because there is barely any airflow now. We'll have the warmest storage area around.

I'm curious what effect this has on trade-in value. In other words, if this re-routing workaround solves the immediate problem of the furnace overheating, but doesn't get to the root cause, and we decide to trade this in, what kind of loss are we looking at? This should have never left the factory or the dealership and not been left to a couple of HVAC-ignorant old people to realize there's a problem on day 2 of ownership.

Well, it certain appears that your duct work is in terrible shape. It’s really a shame that you are better equipped to investigate and locate problems than the dealer network is. Your findings certainly support the lack of a controlled process and quality control at the Alliance factory. Shame full that we pay 100k for these things and this is the type of craftsmanship that we receive.
I would suggest that you call the factory and ask to speak to @Bill Martin and give them a chance to make it right before you decided to make any other modifications.

I would be sure to also contact the dealership that told you the duct work was fine and share the videos with their service management and ownership.

Well, at least maybe you can sleep a little better tonight knowing that you have located the crumbled duct work.

Work directly with the factory and let them determine what the best course of action is moving forward.
Obviously, they have to take ownership of this substandard workmanship.

 

[Katmando]

Well, it certain appears that your duct work is in terrible shape. It’s really a shame that you are better equipped to investigate and locate problems than the dealer network is. Your findings certainly support the lack of a controlled process and quality control at the Alliance factory. Shame full that we pay 100k for these things and this is the type of craftsmanship that we receive.
I would suggest that you call the factory and ask to speak to @Bill Martin and give them a chance to make it right before you decided to make any other modifications.

I would be sure to also contact the dealership that told you the duct work was fine and share the videos with their service management and ownership.

Well, at least maybe you can sleep a little better tonight knowing that you have located the crumbled duct work.

Work directly with the factory and let them determine what the best course of action is moving forward.
Obviously, they have to take ownership of this substandard workmanship.

Thanks for confirming what we've been feeling all along. We tested it with the rerouting this morning, confirming that we can heat up the storage compartment really (really!) well. We directed the 2nd island ductwork to under the stairs, blowing out towards the door. That was unbelievably difficult to route given the cramped space and I have the bruises to show for it. We were able to raise the temp from 55 to 66 this morning, but it still limited out after an historic operating time of 33 minutes - a first! Now we're nudging it upwards a few degrees at a time, thinking that if it doesn't have to work too hard, it can maintain a tolerable temp (with the help of the fireplace space heater, given that we've cut off heat to the living area/kitchen. Clearly the rerouting helped, but is not a fix, plus we're losing significant heat to the the belly of the beast. I'm going to check the other duct work for blockages in the meantime.

It's not like we're going to freeze to death, but as you say, for what we paid (cash, BTW) - we shouldn't be having to work around this. We've owned 4 RVs prior to this "luxury" model and never gave the furnace a 2nd thought.

I'll be following up with Alliance and the dealership in the morning.

 

[Katmando]

FYI - curious what normal ductwork looks like (I was!)? This is the route to the bedroom.

 

[BryanValRox]

FYI - curious what normal ductwork looks like (I was!)? This is the route to the bedroom.

Well, “normal” is a term I would only use to describe the consistent width and height and the fact that it isn’t crumbled like your main duct. Like ours, yours is filled with manufacturing debris as well. I can’t for the life of me understand why any RV manufacturer wouldn’t take measures to prevent this debris from entering the duct work for safety and health reasons, not to mention Brand Damage that is suffered in todays “ news travels fast environment”.
@Bill Martin Please for the sake of future purchaser’s call a quality stand down and enacting coaching opportunities to improve the quality of Alliance. Their is no other explanation other then folks on the line do not understand the cause and effect of there actions or the company is pushing them to value quantity over quality.
Certainly, you can measure what this is costing Alliance in warranty claims, but brand damage is somewhat immeasurable. Many observers of this forum are likely scared to death to purchase based on quality issues that new owners are experiencing.
Don’t get me wrong, I am an Alliance fan but………really, is this something to be proud of?
Have you consider starting a Voice of the Customer group that would help to steer the ship? I for one would be willing to participate!

 

[BryanValRox]

Thanks for confirming what we've been feeling all along. We tested it with the rerouting this morning, confirming that we can heat up the storage compartment really (really!) well. We directed the 2nd island ductwork to under the stairs, blowing out towards the door. That was unbelievably difficult to route given the cramped space and I have the bruises to show for it. We were able to raise the temp from 55 to 66 this morning, but it still limited out after an historic operating time of 33 minutes - a first! Now we're nudging it upwards a few degrees at a time, thinking that if it doesn't have to work too hard, it can maintain a tolerable temp (with the help of the fireplace space heater, given that we've cut off heat to the living area/kitchen. Clearly the rerouting helped, but is not a fix, plus we're losing significant heat to the the belly of the beast. I'm going to check the other duct work for blockages in the meantime.

It's not like we're going to freeze to death, but as you say, for what we paid (cash, BTW) - we shouldn't be having to work around this. We've owned 4 RVs prior to this "luxury" model and never gave the furnace a 2nd thought.

I'll be following up with Alliance and the dealership in the morning.

Folks, glad you are making progress and have reached a mile stone before your unit limits out.
I understand your modification are likely temporary to keep you warm, but based on what you have said, I have to offer a word of caution.
Routing the duct to exit under the stairs is an issue and will negatively impact the operation.
The open area under the stairs is actually a return grill for the HVAC. This open grate provides a pathway for the living area air to return to the heater and then be reheated and return to the coach via the duct work. Additionally, the thermostat is on the wall directly above the stairs.
You will be supplying the stair area with freshly heated air from which some will affect the Tstat reading and a portion of this freshly heated air will be drawn back into the grill on its way back to the heater inlet . This could cause cycling issues. There is a specification that calls out the distance that must be held between a return and discharge grill.
Don’t quote me, but I am thinking a distance of about 18 inches is recommend.
The ideal is to set up a “ circular flow” within the coach that allows for discharged air to exit various areas, mix with the surrounding air to” average” the temperature and “flow” back to the return grill to start the trip all over again.
Please keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Katmando]

The open area under the stairs is actually a return grill for the HVAC. This open grate provides a pathway for the living area air to return to the heater and then be reheated and return to the coach via the duct work. Additionally, the thermostat is on the wall directly above the stairs.
You will be supplying the stair area with freshly heated air from which some will affect the Tstat reading and a portion of this freshly heated air will be drawn back into the grill on its way back to the heater inlet . This could cause cycling issues. There is a specification that calls out the distance that must be held between a return and discharge grill.

Argh.... I had a nagging feeling about that and recall that someone told us that was our "cold air return" and not to block it. We knew it wasn't a proper cold air return but after your explanation, I now understand how it's supposed to function. Ironically, it still works better that way than trying to blast air up the occluded ductwork but wrong is wrong and we'll correct that.

That doesn't leave us with many options. Easy enough to disconnect that line, but then what? Either have two lines blasting into the storage compartment or hook them back up to the original lines that are occluded. I suppose we could open up the storage compartment and blast 40% of our hot air outside.

 

[Katmando]

It just keeps getting better and better!

After rerouting per @BryanValRox instructions to eliminate the potential problem of drawing heated air back into the heater, we directed both ducts that previously fed the kitchen island (new ductwork, island ducts are still there but unattached to the furnace) and fed the new temporary duct work out the storage compartment doors. While doing this, I glanced up and saw the bathroom 2" ductwork from the east side of the storage bay, completely split open! That would explain why the flow to the bathroom was limited (ya think?). My patch is in the other photo.

Then we gave it a trial and the furnace FINALLY ran normally for a historic 1 hour and 22 minutes with 3 functional ducts upstairs. Mean output temps were:

Pantry: 158.4 +/- 3.8
Bathroom: 104.2 +/- 1.9
Bedroom: 159 +/- 4.6

Previously, the pantry and bedroom temps were ~220 degrees before the furnace limited out. I can't explain why the 2" ductwork in the bathroom is so much lower - the ductwork is longer and maybe the diameter and distance play a role in cooling down the air before it reaches the vent. I will say that the patch significantly increased the output temp which was hovering between 60-80 degrees previously.

So Hallelujah! We've finally figured out how to get heat to 3 out of 5 vents - well, 5 of 5 if you count the 2 being vented outside. I'm sure it will generate lots of curious questions from other campers, wondering why we're running heat outdoors and wasting propane.

 

[BryanValRox]

It just keeps getting better and better!

After rerouting per @BryanValRox instructions to eliminate the potential problem of drawing heated air back into the heater, we directed both ducts that previously fed the kitchen island (new ductwork, island ducts are still there but unattached to the furnace) and fed the new temporary duct work out the storage compartment doors. While doing this, I glanced up and saw the bathroom 2" ductwork from the east side of the storage bay, completely split open! That would explain why the flow to the bathroom was limited (ya think?). My patch is in the other photo.

Then we gave it a trial and the furnace FINALLY ran normally for a historic 1 hour and 22 minutes with 3 functional ducts upstairs. Mean output temps were:

Pantry: 158.4 +/- 3.8
Bathroom: 104.2 +/- 1.9
Bedroom: 159 +/- 4.6

Previously, the pantry and bedroom temps were ~220 degrees before the furnace limited out. I can't explain why the 2" ductwork in the bathroom is so much lower - the ductwork is longer and maybe the diameter and distance play a role in cooling down the air before it reaches the vent. I will say that the patch significantly increased the output temp which was hovering between 60-80 degrees previously.

So Hallelujah! We've finally figured out how to get heat to 3 out of 5 vents - well, 5 of 5 if you count the 2 being vented outside. I'm sure it will generate lots of curious questions from other campers, wondering why we're running heat outdoors and wasting propane.

Congratulations on your efforts to reach historic levels of furnace operation! I admire your persistence!
Free flowing the two feeds to the outside that were previously supplying your island duct solidify ( in my mind) that your underbelly duct work is the root cause of your furnace limiting out.
Finding the split open duct to the bathroom is also a great find on duct work previously deemed ok by your dealer.
How have your conversations gone with the factory folks regarding your metal ductwork?

On a lighter note, you might make a lot of new friends making inquiries around your external duct work, play it off as a new style of patio heater.😄

 

[Katmando]

Congratulations on your efforts to reach historic levels of furnace operation! I admire your persistence!
Free flowing the two feeds to the outside that were previously supplying your island duct solidify ( in my mind) that your underbelly duct work is the root cause of your furnace limiting out.
Finding the split open duct to the bathroom is also a great find on duct work previously deemed ok by your dealer.
How have your conversations gone with the factory folks regarding your metal ductwork?

On a lighter note, you might make a lot of new friends making inquiries around your external duct work, play it off as a new style of patio heater.😄

OOooo... I hadn't thought about that - a patio heater. Breakfast at the Gustafson's - it's so cozy at their place.

Well, things are looking up. Got the call from Alliance Service this morning in full agreement that our troubleshooting efforts have paid off and that we were better at diagnosing than most service people. Not that I wanted an education in RV diagnostics, but learning new things may ward off Alzheimer's, right?

They are sending out parts, a mobile service guy (appointment Thursday at 10:00 am) and hopefully, we will hit the road on Sunday at 100% operational. I'll be sure and get before and after pictures. Oh, and they are reimbursing the cost of the local guy, who (unlike the service at the dealership) insisted that it had to be the ductwork. Bravo. Cautiously optimistic. Stay tuned.

 

[Katmando]

Update: Yesterday, 65 days later, we had a mobile service repairman take down the underbelly cover to repair the duct work. Here's what he found out.

1. The water tank is under the kitchen island, so you can't get to the duct work from below.
2. The distribution box is built into the kitchen island, so you can't take it out to get to the duct work from above.
3. The metal heat duct (box) is like an inverted U. The vents are on the south side of the island, then the run goes west, turns 90 degrees and runs north between the kitchen island and the stove/refrigerator, then makes another 90 degree turn and heads east, then terminates. It looks like the two duct (hoses) connect on the east end.
4. It is impossible to repair from below without taking down the water tank.
5. We're still at square 1.

One thing caught my eye was this comment from Alliance Service (and this gets back to @BryanValRox suspicion ): "If the internal duct is crushed for some reason, we need to abandon the run and design a new line. Either run new 4" into a new location or duct in by the coffee nook only."

That makes me suspicious that this problem was known and that's why we have an outlet by the coffee nook (aka "pantry") and Bryan does not. Alternatively, they're just saying that the options are to run two new lines (we did that, but had to vent them outside), or maybe add to the duct in the coffee nook.

Either way - we're at 7 service calls with no change, but at least we have a better understanding of what's wrong.