Is stitch welding cheaper? Is that why manufacturers use that process? If not, then why would they use it? Legit question...I don't know how to weld or what "good" looks like from a methodology perspective. @Campingsxs85 you might also know. Thanks to both of you.
41V15 Frame Break
- Thread starter Campingsxs85
- Start date
Respectfully, asking for a replacement rig is not the least bit ridiculous. Full timer or part timer, this is a significant manufacturing defect that keeps on presenting. That is exactly when a buyback is appropriate.
Less welding Rod/or wire and less man hours basically. What suffers is the strength of the connection.
Thanks!
Campingsxs85
Member
Stitch welding does have its place in the manufacturing process if it's used correctly but yes RockDr896 is correct they are saving Fab Time and Materials. But I will say I have seen lots of pretty interesting welds. Bad enough where the fabricator/welder misses the joint totally with a cold lapped weld that doesn't bond anyway. It's all about quantity not quality in the mass manufacturing these days!
correct Campingsxs85........with Lippert in the spot light here and maybe Alliance, if they build it to Alliance specs....It only points to a cost savings move for Alliance/Lippert....based on when their liabilities go away. They are building to a warranty and what truck buyers can afford (5th wheels only and leaving out the other options for now). So what happens, when 3 stitch welds, have one or more bad welds? We are saying the same thing, so I am not throwing any shade here. I think this is an example of three nails....but 1 nail failing.
So if I frame a back porch...to save on nail cost....I only put a nail at the top, middle, and bottom nail holes available....If 3 won't hold it, then how would more nails help...(Stitch Welding in my opinion)..... The national builders code and local inspections have responded to the "fly by night" deck builders. If you have a 8" joist, then it needs a solid attachment. The approved joist hanger, makes knowing how many nails are needed. The home owner, inspector, and builder know how many nails are needed. I am thinking a design error exists within the CAD software, or it is a purposeful decision. The reason I started to make my own parts and equipment was not only cost....it was down time. Because the inspection requirement was needed, they had to address the failures of the trades....hence the national building code. The legal protection for the inspection operation by state. So the wild west of the RV industry is agreeing on a standard....owned by 3 major companies.
There is no inspections of any vehicles "on the road today" at the build stage. Despite, it's potential impact on our Federal highways. It is a great example of self policing products and the liabilities of their build mistakes via a warranty and possibly recalls (A Legal thang). I think they "design" to this minimum to "compete on price". If it wasn't for those DIY types, they would have a much smaller market.
The baby boomer bubble is almost at the end (1963). Meaning tradesman or others who have the interest and willing to go through the learning curve to still buy the product are in their 60's. If they don't address the longevity of the RV, then the market is going to change, yet again. Maybe this is why Alliance is moving into Class A and B products by buying a Terex subsidiary.
Anyway, I am just piling on at this point. In welding, there is no real reason to not run a full weld and fasten the entire piece of metal. I think I feel better, having typed my rant. This is nothing our forum can fix, but it is great fire side conversation!! I am also speaking from a perspective, that I think I know what the problem is. So this is just my take....fire away!!
Last edited:
Campingsxs85
Member
I think you are spot on! I would like to see the industry see them move back to Quality vs Quantity type of mentality. I feel like the industry has let the consumer down on these Frame issues and Many consumers including myself are caught right in the middle of it with a fifth wheel that will be going in yet again for the second frame break with in 1 year. Seems to me as if you had a unit that was 2019ish and older this wasn't even heard of or at least you didn't hear of it as much. This is our 4th camper and by far the biggest POS of them all combined. Never in my wildest dreams thought we would be in this situation. But here we are. Alliance is requesting us to pull this this to Elkhart in Late January for 2 weeks of repairs. Probably another $2,000 in just fuel. This has left a terrible taste in my mouth and unfortunately I am not sure we will own another camper after this one unless some things change in the Industry. We are looking at moving into a Class A but my wife and I haven't really made up our mind yet what we are going to do. We will probably just have to ride this wave for awhile a see how Alliance does on this and go from there.
Well my friend in our camp group, that traded in a Fusion toy hauler with a frame break, and replaced it with a 2022 Alliance Valor V15 (I think), is in the same spot as of today. His frame issues presented at the driver side, bedroom slide. He bought it used, so he is outside warranty. He is pretty creative and handy, so I will update on his course of action. I told him to pull the slide and remove the 12" wide interior wall and get a look at the problem. He thinks the problem is in the wall framing, so it would be easy to fix and reinforce, if so.
His frame break is causing his schwintek motors to shear the set screws. No crack in the azadel walls yet. When he thought he was just dealing with a slide issue, he started discovering the possible frame cracks. So I started digging around for a video and discovered something surprising. The main I-Beams are developing cracks in the vertical webbing of the I-Beam, directly above where the suspension is stitch welded. I am attaching a video, that shows the cracks on an Avenue trailer! The cracks are parallel to the ground, so this has to be bad steel, bad engineering, or both. The cracks are small, but this crew may want to keep this on their radar. It is easy to fix.
Avenue rig
His frame break is causing his schwintek motors to shear the set screws. No crack in the azadel walls yet. When he thought he was just dealing with a slide issue, he started discovering the possible frame cracks. So I started digging around for a video and discovered something surprising. The main I-Beams are developing cracks in the vertical webbing of the I-Beam, directly above where the suspension is stitch welded. I am attaching a video, that shows the cracks on an Avenue trailer! The cracks are parallel to the ground, so this has to be bad steel, bad engineering, or both. The cracks are small, but this crew may want to keep this on their radar. It is easy to fix.
Avenue rig
Fishfnatic
Well-known member
Makes you wonder if it has something to do with bedroom BAL cable slide problems even though no cracks on units
I have a 2022 Avenue and had these cracks near the hangers. I had them repaired by Lippert and they did a great job including welding in a cross brace under the unit - horizontally across the unit - and welding in added plates on the opposite side of the rig. Lippert has a number of repair facilities around the country as well as mobile techs that are making these repairs.
Campingsxs85
Member
To my understanding the breaks on our rig where under the bedroom slide out. The Kitchen slide-out had some issues as well, it looked as if the slide-out opening was cut out unsquare or the slide-out box was built unsquare. But what would happen is when you would slide in and out the kitchen slide a few times it would basically destroy the front whipper seal. It also made a pretty big crack on the Azdell siding on the front upper side of the kitchen slide-out. I have looked at the main frame above the axles and have not seen any cracks. But everything that was fixed the first time was in the walls was broken welds. So, I am guessing it is most likely the same welds that Stevie Wonder made during the first repair. I have an appointment with Alliance in Feb. in Elkhart. So hopefully diesel prices come down between now and then!!
Last edited:
So this video is 2 years old...but provides a good look at how the walls play a role in frame flex, before the frame gives up. So my take is this....it is my understanding, that Lippert builds the frame to the builders design in most cases. Lippert is saying, that the wall attachment coming loose, is the eventual nail in the coffin when the welds or steel tubing breaks.
Since I have replaced so many interior and exterior screws that lacked sufficient thread (Clamping strength), it isn't a stretch to question whether the same mistake is being made at the wall attachment points. It is a tough thing for us, because we have no way to inspect that connection, before it becomes a major issue.
The only idea I can come up with, is an outside angle trim piece, that allows the bolts to be accessed and tightened/monitored. That would require frame holes to maybe be threaded, or nuts welded to frame, so a wrench is not needed on both sides of the connection.
This video, is most certainly at the heart of any dispute, if there is one with any of the RV builders vs Lippert. I can see this happening with every 5th wheel being built and not just the toy haulers eventually. If I EVER get into this issue with mine, I will be creating a Frakenstein-camper, never seen before!! LOL.... I just don't buy that a fix, that can be accessed and maintained, is going to add any meaningful weight...I just don't buy it....
Since I have replaced so many interior and exterior screws that lacked sufficient thread (Clamping strength), it isn't a stretch to question whether the same mistake is being made at the wall attachment points. It is a tough thing for us, because we have no way to inspect that connection, before it becomes a major issue.
The only idea I can come up with, is an outside angle trim piece, that allows the bolts to be accessed and tightened/monitored. That would require frame holes to maybe be threaded, or nuts welded to frame, so a wrench is not needed on both sides of the connection.
This video, is most certainly at the heart of any dispute, if there is one with any of the RV builders vs Lippert. I can see this happening with every 5th wheel being built and not just the toy haulers eventually. If I EVER get into this issue with mine, I will be creating a Frakenstein-camper, never seen before!! LOL.... I just don't buy that a fix, that can be accessed and maintained, is going to add any meaningful weight...I just don't buy it....
Attachments
Campingsxs85
Member
Well my question is why in gods name would you attach the walls with like grade 5 self tapping screws anyway...? You are relying on the sloppy threads that get made by a cheap screw lol. It makes absolutely ZERO sense. I don't understand why they don't use bolts with locking nuts. In all my years being a Millwright I have never came across a locking nut that has came loose... So why don't they design these to be better built. Me personally, I would pay a little bit more money to have a camper that is built to last.. But I have seen this video before and they are building these things to an absolute Bare minimum and be light as possible which is asking for problems..
Exactly right! Why would fastener costs or weight concerns, be involved in a structural area! Especially, when it will be buried in places, that cannot be monitored or tightened!
My rock trenchers came with 3/4" fine thread bolts, that held on 1 1/2" steel plates weighing 220 lbs each. After 1 year of having bolts falling out, I re-drilled 96 plates and threw in 1" bolts....problem solved...The manufacturer's engineering groups at their finest.....
I went from $185,000 per year and per machine in repair costs and reduced it to $35,000 per year.....Since it was specialty equipment, attachments cost upwards of 800K....I just started making my own attachments for 250K....I have many funny stories, when it comes to dealing with the head engineers of all disciplines....only to have them try and figure out later, how and what I did....as sales tried to figure out, why I wasn't buying their stuff.....it eventually ended up, with me buying the equipment used at auction, after a new buyer gave up trying to use them...
Hours or dollars per unit. Bottom line drives the day. My best guess.
Not the least bit doubting that as being the case. That said, I’d expect a jig to be used to make that cut. Shame if that’s not the case as it’s kind of critical.
Just an update on my friends slide out/frame issue....We have a very talented friend in our camp group with a machine shop, show up this weekend. He has fixed a broken frame on one of his previous units. The approach at the moment, is removing the trim and paneling from the inside and making the repairs needed. He doesn't think it is frame at this point. It is a failure in the framing for the slide out , in his opinion. We shall see if this is the case.
The fix he made on the previous unit he had, was to cut away the outside wall needed, repair the area, and replace with angled trim piece he could access the area in the future.
I placed my bets on something more is moving. It is the beginning of the wall attachment points are moving, or it is too late and it is a frame issue. The night of camp fire debate, is yet to be determined! I will update as repairs happen.
The fix he made on the previous unit he had, was to cut away the outside wall needed, repair the area, and replace with angled trim piece he could access the area in the future.
I placed my bets on something more is moving. It is the beginning of the wall attachment points are moving, or it is too late and it is a frame issue. The night of camp fire debate, is yet to be determined! I will update as repairs happen.